Foreordination vs Predestination‏

email dated 5/11/2009
This week we got to teach a woman named Dale from Florida. She is very rich and has a grand piano in her 11th floor apartment on the beach. She gave me a Coke and I was grateful. Well, Dale is very well versed in her bible. She is better versed in the scriptures than any other person I have ever had to teach while on the mission. I enjoyed bringing my English scriptures and the chance to speak my native tongue while preaching the gospel.

She read 3 Nephi 11 as we had marked for her and she got very excited that Jesus had visited a peoples in the American continent. The idea fascinated her and excited her. She loved that He came to the Land Bountiful, as it is written. She then referenced us a scripture in Daniel about a Beautiful Land. She said upon reading she really enjoyed and found fascinating the "Mormon idea and doctrine". She asked "I am not saying that it isn't possible that there be more scripture, but I just would like to know if you have any way in the bible of showing that there could be more scripture." I asked her first to define scripture and we agreed that scriptures are the words of the prophets for the benefit of men. Okay, good. I then showed her that in Matthew it says "thus fulfilling the saying that Jesus would be a Nazarene." and then demonstrated that nowhere in the entire Old Testament does it say that Jesus Christ would be called a Nazarene. We know a prophet said it, but where are his words. The Bible is merely a collection of books, not necessarily every book any prophet ever said. I said that the Old Testament makes mention of the Book of Nathan the prophet at the time of King David. Where is the book of Nathan? Would not the words of this prophet be considered scripture? After I had said this she was really interested. She said so. "I am really interested to know a little more. But do you have a verse that would cite and say that there will be another significant scripture. I tend to think God would have to warn us in the Bible somehow with the Bible being such a crucial piece of Christianity." I agreed and took her to Ezekiel. After explaining that the Lehites that left Jerusalem were of the lineage of Joseph we read the passage in Ezekiel about the prophet taking a stick for Judah and writing upon it (Jesus being of the tribe of Judah and the people in Jerusalem), and another stick for Ephraim and writing upon it, and then putting them both in one hand. I then put my Book of Mormon on top of my Bible and said "prophecy fulfilled!" SHE LOVED THAT!! I have never taught anybody here on my mission that would have know that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, or that there would even be any significance of being from any tribe for that matter. I have never in my entire mission needed to use that scripture because nobody here in Uruguay really asks us those questions. It was a lot of fun.

Well Dale loves the idea of the Book of Mormon and is gulping it right up. She reads and she cross references with the Bible. She continually said, "The one thing that the Book of Mormon does such a great job on is going into profound detail of the doctrine. That Nephi brought out the interesting and very true point that no other Christian has been able to explain to me about the opposition in all things." (2 Ne 2) She would appear to be a golden investigator huh? But we have a doubt.

Predestination. She ate up 2 Nephi 2 but she didn't like how Lehi said that "men are free to choose." She said that nowhere in the Bible is the word "agency" mentioned. She essentially believes in a scripted world of predestination, but she doesn't accept the Calvinist doctrine because they don't take it far enough for her liking. She essentially thinks that since God knows everything, He placed you in your world and He knows what you are going to choose, and so therefore you really have no say in the matter. You were scripted to play that role. No agency.

And here I arrive at the difference between Predestination and Foreordination. I tried explaining to her that she was really close to understanding, but that "we Mormons" use a different word entirely which is "foreordination". She asked "what is the difference?"

The difference is Agency. Foreordination takes into account the first estate of our existence. Life didn't begin here on Earth nor does all choice end when we die. We chose to come here. We made character developing choices in our first estate. God knowing our characters and what he wanted us to learn in this life was able to position us in the best possible place for us to learn and grow. The difference between Foreordination and Predestination is that nobody is destined to fail in the true doctrine of the Plan of Salvation. We may not be able to understand everything about it, but we do know that by Judgment Day, that last day, we will have all faced equal opportunity. Instead of saying that "All men were created equal" I prefer now to say that "All Intelligences were created equal". Along the path of this 3 Act plan, we all get the fair chance. It is obvious that we don't all get a fair chance at mortal life. But God is just and faithful. We need to understand the purpose of our existence which is to become like Him. And how is He? He knows the difference between good and evil and ALWAYS chooses good.

I said all of that to her and she had no problem with a preexistence or the idea of becoming like God. She still wont let me say the word Agency and I had to fight to get the word "choose". But we finally got it when I asked "Can God then not choose? Will you try and take His power to decide what to do? Did He not choose to create the world? Did someone make Him do it?" Obviously not. "Therefore, if we are to be like Him we too must learn the difference between good and evil, and be capable of choosing the good for ourselves." I think she will get it. She was coming along but we had to go and didn't have much more time to teach.

It is a deep doctrine and I am looking for more insight. We cant understand everything. Read Mosiah 4:9. That will take the headache away. I have been trying for days to figure out the difference between foreordination and predestination. I am getting there.

Gotta go. Love you all!!

Andy